Curse

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 01, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

Can you be a Christian and a Vampire? I wanna be a vampire. I like blood. That's how I roll.

Nobody says you have to be Christian.

MSecorsky · Sep 02, 2005, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Continuing my discussion then, can you accept that in order to be able to label our general conclusion as absolute truth we must observe/record every specific event, which ultimately leads to that conclusion.

Take this simple example. I say that dragons exist. In order to prove this as an absolute truth I would need to examine every possible location in the known universe for dragons.

Um, no, you would need to provide evidence that dragons exist, otherwise it's nothing more than a simple assertion. The evidence and how you reached your conclusion that it's evidence for dragons would need to undergo a peer-review process for validation and acceptance, and other folks would need to be able to duplicate the tests you performed and get the same results.

MSecorsky · Sep 02, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The undead Mesmer

okiedokie lets talk about religion now (auch never thought i would say that)

i think that every religion is based on the same God except the greek and egyptian ones what do you think?

I think you're wrong. There's the Norse mythos, the various South American ones, the North American ones, ...

There's only a couple based on "the big one".

Thanas · Sep 02, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Um, no, you would need to provide evidence that dragons exist, otherwise it's nothing more than a simple assertion. The evidence and how you reached your conclusion that it's evidence for dragons would need to undergo a peer-review process for validation and acceptance, and other folks would need to be able to duplicate the tests you performed and get the same results.

I am providing you evidence dragons exist if I show you a dragon. Do you not agree with this?

Beta Ray Bill · Sep 02, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I am providing you evidence dragons exist if I show you a dragon. Do you not agree with this?

What about circumstantial evidence? Is it possible to conclude that dragons exist if you were to find what appears to be dragon caves, empty dragon egg shells, and possibly even fossilized dragon bones? How about secondhand witness accounts (ie. you know someone who has personally seen a dragon)?

If so, how much circumstantial evidence would be necessary to reasonably conclude that dragons do exist? Could we look to historical documents as supportive of these theories? How weighty could history be in support of modern evidence?

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 02, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Is it just me, or is getting into religious discussion on a gaming message board a tell-tale sign that you are in dire need of a vacation?

Alura Pyro · Sep 02, 2005, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I go on vacation today

ManadartheHealer · Sep 02, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Note before I start this post: I find the topic of religion intriguing (along with all the psychological and philosophical baggage attached

).

I think most religions are based on fear, and the rest out of ignorance. A main theme to both Christianity and Islam is basically "Worship our god or burn in hell". They seek to manipulate people with fear, because that is what works. And, on the flip side, they give good, loyal people a "reward" (heaven) so they always think they are profiting from being religious (the element of rational self-interest must be present, otherwise worshipping god seems futile and a waste of time). Also, this reward system doubles as a comfort to people when confronted with death. People have always been afaraid of death because they cannot comprehend it, they cannot understand what it is like to cease to exist. Religion helps these fearful people stay relatively sane when confronted with death (although I find myself personally less afraid of death than religious people, so I don't know how much comfort this concept provides).

Any religion not based on a Fear/Reward system is based out of ignorance (and many are based on both). We have religion because we need answers to questions that are over the heads of scientists (supposedly

). Where did we come from?, Where do we go when we die?, Is there truly justice?, etc. All these are questions religion claims to have an answer to. Scientists, relying on actual proof before making wild claims, takes longer. But people, being impatient, want the answers now, and turn to religion (or their parents did, and passed the belief on to their children). After awhile, people simply assume these are the answers to life, the universe, and everything. And, when someone criticizes their view, they get hostile (as all people do).

Religion supposedly does good for the world, but I really doubt the scope of the good. Sure, some self-centered people who are currently religious might not donate as much money to charity if they didn't think heaven was waiting for them, but that isn't the main problem. Whenever I debate this point with people, they fall back on the argument that religion is the only thing keeping people from "stealing, murdering, and general chaotic mischief". When I look at the current atheist community, I don't see a bunch of criminals (although, I admit, there may be some. Also, theives and the like who say their not religious but worship god as soon as something goes bad are counted in the "religious" category). I do see a bunch of educated people in intellectual careers (read: scientists), who are usually (in my experience) kinder and more tolerant than their religious counterparts.

The problem is religion does (or is the front for) an immesurable amount of evil. War, genocide, murder, dictatorship (theocracy), repression of civil rights and liberties, racism, prejudice, etc. And then, there are smaller ones, like how it tries to contain knowledge about sex, restrains science (stem cells), and other such things that seem trivial in comparison to the important issues.

End notes:
-When I say "religious person", I mean any person who says/acts/thinks with religion in mind. Also, people who simply say they are religious (and thereby free from persecution for certain actions) fall in this category.
-If needed, I can clarify what exactly religion messes up, but right now it's kind of late and I need sleep

-If you wish to make rebuttal, please don't simply attack me or not provide proof.
-This was one of my longest posts here ever

Beta Ray Bill · Sep 02, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

I think one of the key things you are forgetting are ecstatic experiences religious people have. It may seem trivial, or you may be able to rationalize it away in so much scientific theory, but the truth is that many deeply religious people have "an experience" which, to them, gives credence to the rightness of their beliefs.

Actually, there have been countless examples of "miracles" through the ages. By miracle, I mean a phenomenon where a certain occurance steps outside scientifically rational explanation. How could science reasonably explain a documented case of AIDS or cancer suddenly disappearing? Perhaps the activation of latent high-potency antibodies within the patient? Possibly... How about 20 such cases within a small geographic region? Something in the water, perhaps? How about 200-300 cases worldwide specifically centered around the activity of one individual -- a minister?

I'm not saying these things can't be explained in a scientific manner, but these types of events do warrant attention. Moreover, they give believers a great deal of ammo to support their claims.

Also, keep in mind that while most atheists see science and religion as to distinct and very separate entities, most religious people do not. The train of thought typically goes like this: God (or "a god") created everything and set into place all natural laws, therefore all natural laws (and creation itself) will attest to the existence of this god. It is simply up to the believer to find proof of God in nature.

Interestingly enough, atheism is actually a relatively small belief system. There have been what you might consider atheistic trains of thought and philosophy through the ages (Socrates, anyone?), but it has never really grown outside of those who aspire to the intellectual elite. Religious thought has been predominant the world over, and IMHO will never go away.

As you said, people want answers to the unanswerable. Life, the universe and everything. Have you ever skipped to the end of a book because the suspense was just killing you? It's the same concept on a more ethereal plane. If we know how things end, it gives us comfort and energy to continue in life.

I think the worst thing atheism does for the world at large, though, is that it seems to steal a sense of worth from those who believe it. If God doesn't exist, one might think, then there are no lasting consequences for my selfish or harmful actions. And while you may see this as weak thinking, the truth of the matter is that MOST people seek to care for themselves before they help others.

Don't believe it? Let's take a current situation. If you were to somehow lose your entire paycheck this week (it gets stolen, it's already been eaten up by bills, etc.) would you still send monetary relief to the people of New Orleans (assuming you planned such to begin with)? There's no need to respond to this particular question; I merely present it as a point of introspection.

The most important thing I can see for any serious philosopher (read: readers of this thread) is that of honesty. At any point where we stop critically examining our current beliefs in favor of blindly defending what we supposedly "know," we instantly become atrophied in our "religion" (and that includes atheists) and an intellectual liability. Only the open-minded will find ultimate truth. Doubts are simply doorways to proving the truth, because Truth will always support itself. I encourage everyone to take a good, hard, critical look at your current state of faith (or lack thereof) and challenge it with something from the enemy's camp. Consider the possibility of their arguement for a while. If you search for the honest truth, you will find it, I guarantee.

Divinitys Creature · Sep 02, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Continuing my discussion then, can you accept that in order to be able to label our general conclusion as absolute truth we must observe/record every specific event, which ultimately leads to that conclusion.

Take this simple example. I say that dragons exist. In order to prove this as an absolute truth I would need to examine every possible location in the known universe for dragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Um, no, you would need to provide evidence that dragons exist, otherwise it's nothing more than a simple assertion. The evidence and how you reached your conclusion that it's evidence for dragons would need to undergo a peer-review process for validation and acceptance, and other folks would need to be able to duplicate the tests you performed and get the same results.

I agree with MSecorsky. To prove dragons exist you only need to show me evidence of one dragon or evidence that one dragon exists (like an egg or dropping or a wing or something). Okay that may prove one dragon exists not dragons LOL. You only have to examine every place in the known universe to prove dragons do not exist. But you could excluse most of the known universe knowing things like dragons need food, water, brimstone, etc. LOL.

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 02, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

That's not exactly what I mean, Manadar. Most religious discussions on game message boards either have people talking about their strange religious beliefs that are founded on no existing organized one, plain harassment of anyone with religious beliefs, or the like.

I'm not saying that I don't find it interesting to discuss religious topics or cultures, just not on a gaming message board

.

ManadartheHealer · Sep 02, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Ray Bill

I think one of the key things you are forgetting are ecstatic experiences religious people have. It may seem trivial, or you may be able to rationalize it away in so much scientific theory, but the truth is that many deeply religious people have "an experience" which, to them, gives credence to the rightness of their beliefs.

Actually, there have been countless examples of "miracles" through the ages. By miracle, I mean a phenomenon where a certain occurance steps outside scientifically rational explanation. How could science reasonably explain a documented case of AIDS or cancer suddenly disappearing? Perhaps the activation of latent high-potency antibodies within the patient? Possibly... How about 20 such cases within a small geographic region? Something in the water, perhaps? How about 200-300 cases worldwide specifically centered around the activity of one individual -- a minister?

I'm not saying these things can't be explained in a scientific manner, but these types of events do warrant attention. Moreover, they give believers a great deal of ammo to support their claims.

Also, keep in mind that while most atheists see science and religion as to distinct and very separate entities, most religious people do not. The train of thought typically goes like this: God (or "a god") created everything and set into place all natural laws, therefore all natural laws (and creation itself) will attest to the existence of this god. It is simply up to the believer to find proof of God in nature.

Interestingly enough, atheism is actually a relatively small belief system. There have been what you might consider atheistic trains of thought and philosophy through the ages (Socrates, anyone?), but it has never really grown outside of those who aspire to the intellectual elite. Religious thought has been predominant the world over, and IMHO will never go away.

As you said, people want answers to the unanswerable. Life, the universe and everything. Have you ever skipped to the end of a book because the suspense was just killing you? It's the same concept on a more ethereal plane. If we know how things end, it gives us comfort and energy to continue in life.

I think the worst thing atheism does for the world at large, though, is that it seems to steal a sense of worth from those who believe it. If God doesn't exist, one might think, then there are no lasting consequences for my selfish or harmful actions. And while you may see this as weak thinking, the truth of the matter is that MOST people seek to care for themselves before they help others.

Don't believe it? Let's take a current situation. If you were to somehow lose your entire paycheck this week (it gets stolen, it's already been eaten up by bills, etc.) would you still send monetary relief to the people of New Orleans (assuming you planned such to begin with)? There's no need to respond to this particular question; I merely present it as a point of introspection.

The most important thing I can see for any serious philosopher (read: readers of this thread) is that of honesty. At any point where we stop critically examining our current beliefs in favor of blindly defending what we supposedly "know," we instantly become atrophied in our "religion" (and that includes atheists) and an intellectual liability. Only the open-minded will find ultimate truth. Doubts are simply doorways to proving the truth, because Truth will always support itself. I encourage everyone to take a good, hard, critical look at your current state of faith (or lack thereof) and challenge it with something from the enemy's camp. Consider the possibility of their arguement for a while. If you search for the honest truth, you will find it, I guarantee.

Religion doesn't seem to keep many people from doing horrible things (look at the countries where one religion is predominant and helps shape public policy; look at people in general). There is some pretty bad stuff out there; that we can all agree on. However, the predominant set of beliefs in the world at large is theistic in nature. Therefore, it is safe to assume that religion (in it's current position of power) is either causing or not stopping the current evil. That is known for sure.

Even if a god doesn't exist, very real and sometimes very serious consequences can still be brought upon oneself by stupid actions. If you steal, you go to jail. I don't see where God is needed in that equation. Many people will not steal for fear of going to jail (the logical consequence. If you are being a menace to society, you receive a "time-out"), and those who do steal anyway aren't afraid of consequences (not afraid of little fairy-tale consequences or real-world consequences).

Simply because miracles cannot be explained by scientists with their current knowledge does not indicate divine intervention or any other related thing. Either the probability of the "miracle" happening is extrmely low or was caused by laws of nature not yet known to man. If someone can attribute it to God, I can attribute it to a tree, and we'd both have equal proof (i.e. nothing).

Anyone with any sense of humanity or goodwill will send money to help out New Orleans. It doesn't require faith in a supernatural being to donate a little money to disaster victims; all it requires is an ounce of compassion.

EchoSex · Sep 02, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

My standing on religion was always simple: Belive whatever the heck you want, it could invovle a giant talking wallnut for all I care... But the second you inflict harm in any way on another person under the name of your religion, your out of line.

I think it's okay for people to have their own beliefs, but recruiting people or casuing any form of harm with it (And that includes saying "Oh you'll burn in Hell because my religion is right and yours is wrong!") is just absolutely wrong. Thats why I'm kind of against organized religion... It allows for alot of manipulation in many forms (Example: Some Christ based groups manipulate the country and it's views on scientific development, which is SO wrong, and some Muslum faiths are used as tools to control people into doing someone's will, such as acts of terrorism or violence).

Mercury Angel · Sep 03, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

That's not exactly what I mean, Manadar. Most religious discussions on game message boards either have people talking about their strange religious beliefs that are founded on no existing organized one, plain harassment of anyone with religious beliefs, or the like.

I'm not saying that I don't find it interesting to discuss religious topics or cultures, just not on a gaming message board

.

You mean like the merits of the Westboro Baptist Church, who recently released an article entitled, "Thank God for Katrina"?
Let's just say we're lucky "Thou shalt not murder." is a direct commandment.

In their own words, they're 'above the laws of men'.

On a scientific note, studies cited in New Scientist lend to the idea that humans are hardwired to be superstitious. Interpret that as you will.

[Hopefully not offensively. I'm non-demoninational Christian... I think. The iffy-bit comes from me not worrying about what other people label my faith as. It is what it is, and doesn't change with someone else's label, so I don't see how it should be any of my concern.]

ManadartheHealer · Sep 03, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

On a scientific note, studies cited in New Scientist lend to the idea that humans are hardwired to be superstitious...

I know people who were raised without any superstitions by their parents, and they currently are not superstitious in the least...

I believe that your upbringing determines how superstitious you are. If you are raised with parents who are averted to silly fears, then you will have disdain for them too. If your parents don't care either way and they don't drain the childish beliefs out of you, you may become superstitious. And, obviously, if your parents promote those kinds of things you would believe in them.

MSecorsky · Sep 03, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I am providing you evidence dragons exist if I show you a dragon. Do you not agree with this?

Absolutely. But until you provide evidence, you merely have an assertion.

Old Dood · Sep 03, 2005, 02:33 AM // 02:33

I am not a "Religious Person". I think of myself as a "Spiritual Person".

Religion is Man Made! To me God/Creator/Big Dood/Big Doodett is not religious!

Spirituality just IS! There is "something" about us as humans where we are "hardwired" to another plane of exsistence of some kind. I think of it as different dimensions. We are three dimensional beings. A God/Creator/Alien/whatever is on another higher dimensional plane. This is how "God" can be anywhere and everywhere at once. He/she would be beyond our Laws Of Physics.

If you read the book Cosmos by Carl Sagan he tries to explain the 4th Dimension by explaining the difference between a lifeform from the 2nd Dimension "seeing" a 3rd Dimensional lifeform in his 2nd Dimensional world. Dr. Sagan said it like this: "Take a piece of paper and call it Flatworld and take a pencil and poke it through the paper. All the 2nd Dimensional lifeform would see is the pencil as it goes through the paper of his Flatworld. He knows it is there but he can not wrap his mind around what he is seeing." The same goes for us trying to understand the 4th Dimension and so forth. We know it is there but we can not fully see it in our three dimensional plane. nor can we apply our physics because they are physics of the 3rd Dimension. I apply this thinking to "What/Who is GOD?"....the Begining of the Universe and all that.

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 03, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

You mean like the merits of the Westboro Baptist Church, who recently released an article entitled, "Thank God for Katrina"?
Let's just say we're lucky "Thou shalt not murder." is a direct commandment.

In their own words, they're 'above the laws of men'.

On a scientific note, studies cited in New Scientist lend to the idea that humans are hardwired to be superstitious. Interpret that as you will.

[Hopefully not offensively. I'm non-demoninational Christian... I think. The iffy-bit comes from me not worrying about what other people label my faith as. It is what it is, and doesn't change with someone else's label, so I don't see how it should be any of my concern.]

I fail to see how you can relate anything I said to a comment from the Westboro Baptist Church (Isn't this also the Church more commonly known as "God Hates Fags"?).

Perhaps you could reword this? I can't see where you are going with it in relation to my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EchoSex

recruiting people or casuing any form of harm

Recruiting people is causing injury... how?

You do realise that most major relgions are only know BECUASE they recruited people, right? Just becuase the Catholic church no longer goes door-to-door talking to people at their houses doesn't mean they didn't 1.5k years ago

Quote:

I believe that your upbringing determines how superstitious you are.

I concur.

Thanas · Sep 03, 2005, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Absolutely. But until you provide evidence, you merely have an assertion.

Exactly my point. The fact of the matter is unless I can show you a dragon, my statement is merely an assertion. No matter what evidence I provide, dragons eggs, scales etc, you cannot be entirely sure that dragons exist. I am utilising specific events to reach a general conclusion. To be entirely sure dragons exist I would need to do more than this, I would need to show you a dragon. It may require me to search every location in the known universe. Because it may be possible for a dragon to be in any of these locations.

Now physics itself can be compared to the search for the dragon. Physics is based on models and imperfect concepts. Physics and science in general derives general conclusions from specific events. In order for somone to be entirely sure that science/physics works, they would be required to test it indefinitely.

Most people will except what science has to say as truth. Why do people do this? Well it is almost impossible for a person to question everything at each step in their lives. So if people except what science has to say as truth when in fact it is nothing more than a set of possible conclusions then some element of faith was involved i.e. faith is the process which takes you from possible to definite.

So do you agree that when you say the Sun will set and rise tommorrow, you are on some level taking a leap of faith, no matter how small it may be.

(note this is linked to my original question i.e. how do you know the Sun will rise and set tommorrow?)

Beta Ray Bill · Sep 03, 2005, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by old warrior dood

(buncha stuff)

I agree completely. Faith is simply accepting what we cannot know with absolute certainty. This has been my point all along--that we are, at the core, faith-oriented beings simply because we cannot know everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manadarthehealer

Anyone with any sense of humanity or goodwill will send money to help out New Orleans. It doesn't require faith in a supernatural being to donate a little money to disaster victims; all it requires is an ounce of compassion.

Not everyone who wants to will send support to the victims of Katrina. I don't necessarily criticize their decision, but I wanted to use it as a matter of illustration.

Quote:

Therefore, it is safe to assume that religion (in it's current position of power) is either causing or not stopping the current evil. That is known for sure.

It should also be recognized that the majority of charity work and global aid organizations are run by/were created by religious organizations. Yes, there are humanitarian organizations run solely by a government or other secular group, but these are clearly in the minority.

I do not deny the carnage and suffering caused by religion over the ages. It is sad, reprehensible, and tragic. However, it is important to understand the impetus behind such dark periods. I would postulate that most religions aspire to a lofty ideal. In fact, I would challenge you to find one that does not have written in its tenets values which reflect a superior view of love, compassion and similar morals. If this is the case, that religious principles and moral code seek to bring out the best in Man, then I would deduce that straying from these ideals (instead of living up to them) and following our base nature is what causes the pain and suffering we see in the world. Moreover, I think that people who abuse spiritual power for their own gain is far more heinous an act than a pure secularist who does the same because it is a betrayal of the values they profess.

So, yes, religion has the potential for greater evil but also the potential for the greatest good. Some of the most despicable displays of evil in world history have been done on a primarily secular stage. Hitler and Pol Pot come to mind. Strangely enough, I find it difficult to remember any truly noble and good acts of humanitarianism from history. Perhaps that's just me, though...